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Peter, WEEI here in Boston believes the Yankees set Joe up for this. Their theory (and apparently Joel Shermer's too) is that the Yankees leaked news that a deal was close, but knew their offer would be turned down.

In other words the Yankees wanted to be able to say "We tried." This reminds me of the Mo Vaughn negotiations.

Yuck. Well, now we know what life is going to be like with the new Steinbrenner boys. Tacky.

Can't wait to see how the A-Rod negotiations take place. Should be a heck of a lot of "spinning" and posturing with that bit of drama.

Andy

I am not sure about that one. Looking at the offer, I think it was fair, but maybe they did know Joe would be insulted. (And, I am not sure I agree with Joe if he did feel insulted)

Peter - I'm going to offer you one heck of an oppty to make less than you used to make for working your heart out - but, hey, you can make it up in incentives. How's that sound?

To me, it would sound like it's time to look around and see what else life has to offer.

Bravo Mr. Torre !

Good point Mitchell, I guess I just have a hard time hearing about anyone deciding that $5-million a year is too little to do something. Part of me feels exactly the same way you do, but I wish he had said goodbye last week. That way I wouldn't think this was all about money.

Peter?

Having watched this farce play out the past few days, having read the truly stupid and ill-timed blurt from Steinbrenner Sr - I am deeply saddened that a wonderful 12 year run has ended this way for JT. This wasn't classy, this was crass, vulgar, tacky.

Guy isn't a salesman paid to hit his sales quota. He's not a CEO paid with stock options based on P/E. Sure, you can say this is a business, but it's also baseball which is more than a business for many people - it's a passion.

Think I'll now have to get s Steinbrenner Sucks hat now to put alongside the Dead Sox hat in my office.

And Andy, just cause I'm rooting for the Indians to shut down the Sox doesn't mean that I dislike Tito - who is truly a players' manager and has shown great management skills.

Mitchell- absolutely it's a passion, but if I were the guy signing the checks I would expect some level of return for my money. Now, I don't agree that winning the World Series is a realistic goal every season, but when you have the highest payroll and the highest paid manager, I think you should expect the playoffs at minimum. To me, Joe has delivered the minimum the past three years and while that isn't his fault alone, he has to share some of the blame. Based on that, I can't say the offer was unfair.

I feel sick because Joe is a wonderful man and I hate to see him leave the Yankees, it was as you said, not the way any of us wanted to see it end.

Peter, I agree that in the real world $5m is a great offer, but I also think Mitchell makes a great point. Just what did Joe do wrong this year? Did he control the fact the rotation was sub-par (in Yankee standards). Did he control the fact the offense was the best in the league? We can't have it both ways.

And how exactly did they come up with $5m? Why not $4m or $6m? To me, give someone a pay cut is punative. It is different for players as they have a union behind them and they age and typically get worse as quickly as they got good.

Mitchell, I like Francona and think his contract situation needs some addressing too. He is working on the 2nd to last year of his deal. If history repeats itself, he will enter spring training no extension.

Baseball is so much more than strategy and coaching these days, it is media management and fan management and babysitting. It is such a complex job and in a massive market like NYC, only a few can really do it. Give their alternative options, I am shocked the Yankees asked him to take a pay cut.

I think Torre should have turned the deal down. It can't be fun to manage given the impossible expectations, he's been doing this for a long time, and they offered him less money and no job security.

If he still wants to manage, he'd be better off getting less money, more security, and better treatment elsewhere.

Torre is not Billy Martin and he's not going to do anything just to come back as the Yankees' manager.

The Yanks handled this very poorly, but at least this gives Mattingly the ability to say yes now that Torre formally said no rather than simply being fired.

I think they came up with the $5-million based on the fact that with the bonuses he would end up making more than he did this year- if he made the World Series. And, while I don't think Joe did anything wrong per se this year, he would still have been the highest paid manager in baseball and by a lot. I can't overlook that, Lou Pinella makes $3.3 million Francona makes $1.6! LaRussa made $2.8. When you factor in those numbers, can you really say Torre would be unfairly compensated with this deal?

Corey-

I have my doubts that Mattingly is the guy. He wasn't mentioned on the call and Brian Cashman warned everyone that this may take some time. I just got the sense that there was no frontrunner at this time.

They'll miss Joe but I think Joe wasn't too keen on coming back anyway.

Mitchell, He got a deal at 7mm a year after winning a handful of AL crowns and World Series. He hasn't won a WS in 7 seasons and has 1 AL pennant in that time. What's wrong with a deal that offers him $5mm base with low hanging incentives? Is anyone else going to offer him a chance to earn $8mm year where at worst he earns 25% to 33% more than anyone in his profession?

Its a fair offer. I'm sure we'll know more about JT's feelings as time passes but I doubt it was about money. If it was, Joe can go try to find a 3yrs 21mm garo contract elsewhere and I'll see him on Baseball Tonight next year instead.

That said the comments from Steinbrenner were unneccesary and crass. Maybe that was the straw that broke the camels back. For that, I don't blame Torre but he shouldn't and no Yankee fan should ever complain about the money. The Steinbrenners may not be fun to work for, but you know that going in and you get paid for it.

Some interesting comments culled from a Yahoo Sports article:

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ap-yankees-torre&prov=ap&type=lgns

"Under this offer, he would continue to be the highest-paid manager in major league baseball," team president Randy Levine said. "We thought that we need to go to a performance-based model, having nothing to do with Joe Torre's character, integrity or ability. We just think it's important to motivate people."

It appeared to be an offer designed to be rejected. Scott Boras, the agent for Yankees star Alex Rodriguez, said players would have interpreted an acceptance by Torre as weakness.

"It is difficult, near impossible, to accept a salary cut," Boras said. "Successful people can afford their principles. They understand if they accept the position, there is a great risk the message to all under him is dissatisfaction. "

Peter and Tim,

Put yourself in Joe's position. He was asked to take a substantial pay cut, and he was asked to agree to a performance-based contract. To the best of my knowledge, no baseball manager has ever signed such a contract (please do let me know if I'm wrong about that). It's insulting and it's demeaning, because it effectively says to Joe "We keep giving you a sure-fire World Series winner every year [we know we do because we have, by far, the largest payroll in baseball every year] and you keep blowing it. It's all your fault we haven't won a World Series since 2000. So now, in order for us to even consider taking you back, we want a performance-based contract that will hold you accountable for your failings. Oh, and by the way, we'll only give you one year, so next year, you'll have to go through this whole degrading farce all over again." Think about it -- that's what they're saying. It's all very well to argue that gee, it's $5 million, and that's still a lot of money. But how would you feel if your management said to you "We'll keep you around next year, but only if you'll agree to a 28% pay cut, because we didn't make our numbers and that's all your fault. But hey, you can make more than you did this year with performance-based bonuses, assuming you don't screw it up this time around"? I know I'd be insulted. If I were Joe, I'd be asking where the performance-based incentives are for everyone else in Yankees' management. It's easy to nitpick about this or that shortcoming in Joe's tactics, but look at the post-season ERA of the Yankee pitching staff since game four of the 2004 LCS (really, game 3) -- it is very high. You can't win with that. Who is responsible for Kevin Brown and Carl Pavano? Who is responsible for the generally sorry state of the Yankee bullpen the past few years? Who is responsible for the overall lack of focus on scouting and player development for so many years? Who is responsible for getting rid of Bob Watson and Gene Michael, rather than let them continue doing what they demonstrably did so well in building the Yankee dynasty of the late 1990s? Where is the accountability for all these mistakes? Who took performance-based pay cuts for these mistakes?

Look, Joe got paid very well for his previous success, and this reportedly irks George Steinbrenner a great deal. Well, nobody twisted George's arm and forced him to pay Joe more than twice as much as any other manager. If George couldn't negotiate a better deal than that, perhaps that means that George isn't as clever as he likes to think he is, not that Joe somehow cheated him. Besides, that's not really the issue with George. It bothers George that Joe gets so much adulation -- adulation that George has felt rightly belongs to him.

For Joe, this was not about losing $2 million in guaranteed money, because at this point, he doesn't need it. This was about deciding that enough is enough. It became an issue of dignity, of being able to look in the mirror and respecting the person he sees. And I say, good for him. It's times like this that make it very hard for me to be a Yankee fan. This whole episode leaves a very bad taste in my mouth. It was handled in a vulgar and undignified manner. If you are not happy with the job the man has done, just tell him. Don't play this out in the media for all this time. I'd like to see who Yankee management is going to find that is going to be anywhere near as successful as Joe in handling all the extraneous nonsense that goes with being a Yankee manager. And I wonder if the know-it-alls who make that selection will be held accountable if they make a mistake, perhaps even losing some of their performance-based compensation? Or perhaps they'll just employ the time-honored tradition of making some schlep out to be the scapegoat and having him take the fall. Well, at least we won't be subjected to Billy CVXXXIII.

Tim,

Hi.

I disagree that the offer was fair. I think the offer was an insulting sham, a PR stunt to dump a manager that Levine and the Boys no longer wanted.

I agree that Torre probably had had enough of the second guessing and the Tampa blustering. As the saying goes, "enough already".

I am a Yankee fan and I complain about the money that goes to some of the aging or "one year wonder" players in desperation (Brown, Clemens, Pavano).

The offer to Torre wasn't about the money at all, it was about the structure and longevity (or lack thereof) of the deal.

Look, this team either strikes a balance between win today versus invest in tomorrow or it continunes to fail. Winning today means buying talent, price be damned. Investing for tomorrow means bulding a strong farm system and harvesting it carefully and regularly.

Cashman seemed to have been trying to steer towards the farm system. With the Boys and Levine the Weasel now calling the shots, I think Cashman is in for a rough go of it. He will either win it all next year or be the next one shown the door by Tampa.

Greg

That's a great post, I have one problem with your argument. In sports, it's all about performance.

If A-Rod had gone out in 2007 and had the same year he did in 2006, we would be laughing at the notion that he would get $30-million a year for the next ten years, but we are not. The difference is that he had a career year in 2007 and he will now cash in.

Yes, I would be horrified if my employer tried to cut my pay 30% next year, but that's partly because I do not have the ability to increase my pay 30%. Those of us not in sports or Wall Street do not see our salaries fluctuate to that extent. To me, that is the nature of sports and I cannot slam the Yankees for playing that game. They went to Joe and told him he could come back with a pay cut, but still at a salary above everyone else in his profession.

To me, that is not an insult, but I am sorry it all ended this way.

Mitchell

Well thought out as usual, but I would ask, what makes you think Joe is the right guy to harvest young talent?

I love Joe (despite my posts today) but I cannot call him a nurturer of young players. I don't know who will take over the Yankees, but I hope they choose someone who can develop youngsters better than Joe could.

(and, on a side note, do you think Torre's departure makes A-Rod less or more likely to sign with the team?)

Peter - I think that harvesting is not the manager's job so much as it the job of the owner and the GM to have the patience with the Manager to go through the process. If Tampa has to win everything always, it cripples the effort and that's been the case with this team.

This is a team that had NO farm system, building one and introducing the products of same takes time, patience and a willingness to sometimes let a youngster be lousy (think Melky in the OF when he first came up).

I think Torre was good at protecting the youngsters - I think he sometimes was forced to not give them a chance due to the edicts of Tampa to always win it all. He was never permitted to take a real risk with young talent - which was in chronic short supply due to the farm system problems. Whose fault is that? I suggest Tampa's and the GM's.

I think Boras can now play hardball to an even greater extent. I think he can play crass right up their at the level of Tampa - should be a fun spectacle to watch unfold.

Mo? Jorge? Andy? I think there's a greater chance they depart. We'll see.

I would want to be the second manager after Torre - NOT the first. The next manager is stepping someplace that hasn't yet had a chance to air out.

I love Joe Torre, but it may be a good thing for him to leave. I'm sick and tired of the ridiculous expectation that we win the championship every year. Joe should win manager of the year and should go on to a new situation where he can be happy again. Even the morons running this team, as well as a number of morons in the stands, are going to have to give a little leeway to the new guy in charge and not demand a World Series title in his first year.

I think Mattingly is the perfect guy for this job. He's got the trust and respect of guys like Jeter, Rivera, and Posada. He's got the ability to work with younger players. He's a little younger than Joe, he's got kids, and he knows all these players.

Finally, Mattingly embodies all the traditions and captures what is likeable and admirable about the Yankees (stuff which that idiot Steinbrenner has never really comprehended).

p.s.: don't be surprised if the "boss" starts pushing Larry Bowa as the "kick-ass" candidate to run this team. I don't think that would be a good idea, but I could see it happening.

Mitchell, the fact that it was a 1yr deal was a little tough to swallow, I'll give you that but performance based contracts are all over the place. I'd be shocked if most managers didn't have performance based incentives in their contract.
As for a pay cut, are you saying Jeter is goign to be insulted when he gets offered half as much a year in his next deal?
In the context of JT's last contract, I agree, this deal wasn't as good. Considering it was more than double than anyone has ever been paid for the job its a tough act to follow.

The Yanks don't think he warrants a multi-year contract at 2.5 times what any other manager gets paid. I agree with that assessment.

We'll see how Pettitte, Rivera, and Posada feel but its about choices. Unless Joe gets a job for next year they don't have a choice. They can't play for Torre anywhere, I hardly see why they WON'T play in NY just to spite it. Especially if a Girardi or Mattingly end up with the job.
And JT is a big reason why the bullpen has stunk for years.

Hi Tim,

IMHO:

It was a 1 year deal; Torre had no incentives built in to his prior agreement; performance based contracts are not all over the place for coaches/managers; players decline with age, managers do not (unless there is dementia); it was laid out as a take it or leave it deal with no discussion accepted, in other words, take a hike; we'll have to agree to disagree about Torre's worth in navigating through the stresses of managing for the Tampa owner on the biggest and sometimes meanest stage in baseball.

JT didn't make his bullpen stink; his bullpen did. You're granting a coach the power to make his players perform - all he can do is empower or enable them to perform up to their potential. If they're too tired to throw, they need to say that. I hated the way JT used to Quantrill people, but players need to be honest enough to say, not today coach - think Tanyon Sturtze.

Now we get to watch the various melodramas develop for next year's team.

Transitions are never easy. This one is uglier than most and is being played out in the NY spotlights. Welcome to the biggest in the BIGS. - LOL -

Mitchell, it is not the players job to say he is tired. The players job is to do what the manager says. Torre's bullpen use was at best poor and at worst terminally self defeating. There are a lot of relievers that came to the Yanks as successes, failed in NY and then had success elsewhere. How much you want to blame on NY and how much you want to blame on Torre is up to you.

Forget his prior deal, there is no way he should get paid that and I would like to find out for sure that incentives aren't in lots of managers contracts. I'm pretty sure $3mm in incentives is excessive but than again $5mm guaranteed isn't the norm either.

I do think if the Yanks wanted him back they should have offered him a 2yr deal with 1yr option for 2010 if Torre wanted to continue on. At any point in the deal a WS appearance would have triggered the $8mm clause. The length of the deal was crass but the compensation was plenty generous.

Tim,

Only a player can report his readiness. They are the only ones to judge that. They are always obligated to do so. If you think otherwise, we'll agree to disagree.

I think he should get paid what he was paid. Again, we'll agree to disagree.

I think that not only was the term length insulting but so were the paycut and the incentives - I know I would have felt that way too.

If this is the new model that Levine is introducing, so be it - but it would have had to be with a new manager.

I agree with you that they did NOT want him back - that being the case, a much better way to handle this would have been to thank him for his efforts and wish him all the best. THAT's the way to have done this.